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Comments on Requirements of posts in Rigorous Science

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Requirements of posts in Rigorous Science

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To replace using the like of the 'hard-science' tag on Worldbuilding SE, we have the 'Rigorous Science' category. As evident in the name, this involves 'research' of some form, but what does this mean?

That is, what are the requirements for a question in that category and what are the requirements for an answer in that category? If you have a question, how do you know whether or not it's suitable for that category?

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Question requirements

I think it definitely falls on the asker to demonstrate first and foremost that the basic tenets of their idea are feasible. Their question should show that they've done a good deal of thinking about their problem already. They don't have to know the field intimately, of course, but they should make an argument that it's possible to approach the problem rigorously.

This could include citing a paper or other resource they've found, or doing a quick order-of-magnitude calculation. Again, it would be unreasonable to expect the asker to exhibit technical knowledge, but you don't necessarily need to be an expert to do some basic thinking about plausibility.

Answer requirements

On Worldbuilding, the requirements currently in place for an answer to a hard-science question are that it be backed up by at least one (and ideally more) of the following:

  • Equations
  • Empirical evidence
  • Scientific papers
  • "Other citations"

Looking at it with fresh eyes, I'm honestly not a fan (and, for context, I've been one of the forces behind the tag). It's not clear to me that the first, second and fourth points are useful. By the letter of the rule, you could misapply equations, rely on shaky "evidence", and quote a poorly-written press release, and still satisfy the given criteria. Heck, many Wikipedia articles could be valid, yet there are certainly dangerously inaccurate Wikipedia pages out there.

I'm going to recommend that we axe those three ideas, and whittle the restrictions down to mandate that scientific papers (or conference proceedings) must be cited, and must constitute the backbone of an answer. Preferably, this means that the paper has been cited in a legitimate, peer-reviewed journal - no vanity publishers or predatory journals. This should indicate that the claims therein are at the very least reasonable enough from an expert's point of view. Not all scientific papers are widely accepted, but widely-accepted scientific ideas typically come from papers.

I'm on the fence about allowing preprints. I recall at least one case on Worldbuilding where someone cited an arXiv submission (in response to a non-hard science question); I read it twice and found that it was littered with errors and plagiarism. Yet that answer received dozens of upvotes. I'd be inclined to discourage preprints except in extenuating circumstances. (They also might open up to door to other dubious half-baked ideas, and content sources like viXra, which is . . . not to be trusted.)

This is going to mean that in many cases folks will have to either do literature searches or start from a place that cites papers (e.g. Wikipedia) and then dive in to the works themselves. That itself may discourage people from answering - it's not easy to properly do a lit search. Parsing a paper is usually even harder, particularly if non-technical descriptions of it, such as press releases, cover it inaccurately. I'm thinking back to recent inaccurate sensationalist coverage of a rather more mundane result.

That point is really the crux of my argument that we should either require (or, at the very least strongly recommend) that folks cite papers in their answers. It's extremely easy for the actual conclusions to get distorted when reading secondary sources, even if those sources are doing possible to avoid sensationalism and stick to the facts. I'm not saying you can't use secondary sources to support your claims or maybe make your explanations clearer or less technical - you certainly should, if that will increase readability and clarity - but I wouldn't want to see them be the sole pillars of an answer.

Is it worth the trouble? I think so. The number of these rigorous questions we get is likely not going to be high, and so the majority of users presumably will not have to go through the process of doing the research and writing these answers.

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Mithrandir24601‭ wrote over 4 years ago · edited over 4 years ago

I would also consider adding 'conference proceedings' to 'scientific papers' as these are potentially considered on a par with (if not more important than) papers in some fields e.g. Computer Science

HDE 226868‭ wrote over 4 years ago

@Mithrandir24601 Excellent point - I definitely agree.

Canina‭ wrote over 4 years ago

The more I think about this, the more I wonder where should we draw the line? Some things can be expected to be 'general knowledge' in a field; for example, if someone asks about space travel, do we need to dig out a scientific paper (or conference proceeding) that actually derives and defines the equations for Hohmann transfers? If about the color of the sky below a given atmosphere, do we need actual scientific citations for light wavelength scattering/permittivity? Etc.

HDE 226868‭ wrote over 4 years ago

@aCVn When you put it like that . . . fair point. What about something of a compromise: requiring the citation of papers for facts/results/numbers (e.g. the mass range for which a star would undergo carbon fusion late in life) but not requiring them for general equations?

Mithrandir24601‭ wrote over 4 years ago · edited over 4 years ago

The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think that 'good enough quality for a paper' (even if nothing on here is ever actually suitable for a paper, the expected standard should be the same?) is what we want - if you want to start from equations, you need to at least cite either a review article or a textbook?

HDE 226868‭ wrote over 4 years ago

@Mithrandir24601 I'd be willing to stretch it to textbooks, yeah. Presumably that's the same level of rigor, if not more in some cases. (And textbooks are written for the purpose of teaching . . . which I suppose is what this site is all about.)

Canina‭ wrote over 4 years ago

Does it truly need to be papers, though? Take your star mass range example; if I can point at a page at NASA's web site for that, is that really that much worse than a scientific paper that the latter would be acceptable but not the former? If we want to somehow discourage or even exclude content published in predatory journals, it comes down to some degree of judgement of the publishing venue anyway, so at that point, it seems likelihood of being trustworthy trumps means of publication.

Canina‭ wrote over 4 years ago

"Good enough quality for a paper" might not be a terrible metric, though of course it's not as simple to judge as simply "this link points to an article in a scientific publication". In some cases, that's going to mean citing proper scientific papers if you're going to cite anything at all; in other cases, things like detailed, official communications from organizations associated with the people actually doing science on the subject matter may be good enough.

HDE 226868‭ wrote over 4 years ago

@aCVn My underlying concern is partially where we draw the line, why in particular we draw it there, and how we enforce it. I'm worried that we're going to run into disputes on every answer about whether a particular source is trustworthy, unless we can find a better way of objectively describing what "trustworthy" means.

Canina‭ wrote over 4 years ago · edited over 4 years ago

@HDE226868 Definitely understandable, and I basically agree. A clear limit is always easier to enforce than a mushy "yeah, this feels about right" one (or "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it"). On the other hand, I'd hope we don't place higher requirements than would be in place for publication in the venues we require citations toward.

Skipping 1 deleted comment.

Mithrandir24601‭ wrote over 4 years ago

@aCVn Would I put a citation to a NASA webpage in a paper? It depends - I'd download data on e.g. locations of astronomical objects and use that data. But NASA do publish papers as well, so it was actual science I wanted, yes, I'd refer to their papers. To me, this seems pretty reasonable for a category equivalent to a 'hard science' tag

Monica Cellio‭ wrote over 4 years ago

When we work out what the expectations of this category are, it'd be great to create a help page explaining it (possibly drawn from meta posts) and link it in the category description. Moderators can create help topics and admins (hi) can edit the category description on request.